The Daily Bell Interviews Lew Rockwell
[The Daily Bell interviews Lew Rockwell.]
Daily Bell: You have almost singlehandedly led a revolution in thought that has changed the world. How does that make you feel?
Rockwell: Well, thank you, but that's not how ideas work. Without donors, faculty, students, collaborators, distribution media, and the division of labor, we are all just isolated scribblers. That has always been true, for the ancient world and today. We like to say that one person can make a difference, but that is only true to some extent. All forms of production, including in the world of ideas, require as much cooperation with others as possible. And while we were making great progress before 1995, the advent of digital media has made a vast difference precisely because it has dramatically expanded opportunities for communication and cooperation.
Daily Bell: Can you familiarize our readers with the depth and breadth of the organizations you have founded and that offer services — especially on the 'Net.
Rockwell: I founded the Mises Institute in 1982 to try to make sure that the influence of Mises and other Austrian economists would grow. Today Mises.org is the largest economics website on the planet that is not-for-profit, and it is a teaching and publishing powerhouse. I founded LewRockwell.com in 1999, mainly because I had lots of information to share with others, and I got tired of using email lists. I figured that I might as well post what I found interesting, in every area, on a public website. Today, it is the best-read libertarian site on the web.
Daily Bell: Did you ever dream of this level of success?
Rockwell: Neither I nor any of my mentors, like Rothbard, nor influences, like Mises, could have imagined such a thing. Of course, reaching minds is what liberty is all about. The default position of the world is despotism. In the sweep of things, liberty is the exception. What makes the exception possible is ideological work, that is, spreading the ideas through every possible means.
Daily Bell: You attribute some of your success to your father. Can you tell our readers about this unique man?
Rockwell: He was a surgeon and a man of great strength of character, a man of the Old World of the sort we hardly meet anymore. He wasn't a complainer, didn't whine when things didn't go his way. He was incredibly smart, and he loved liberty in the way that the men of the Enlightenment loved liberty: he didn't believe that the state could do anything better than people can do for themselves. He was a man of the Old Right who despised FDR, in whose deliberate war my older brother was killed; and he was an admirer of Robert Taft, not least because of his noninterventionist foreign policy. My father worked hard until the last moment he possibly could. So should we all.
Daily Bell: Can you provide us with a brief history of how you became interested in free markets and decided to make them your life's work?
Rockwell: As with most people, it began with the observation that something was profoundly wrong with the conventional wisdom, which even from grade school seemed to presume that wise masters at the top knew more than anyone else and so should be in charge of everyone and everything. That supposition seemed to lack empirical evidence, so far as I could tell. I discovered the literature of freedom hiding in the library and realized that truth was something I would forever have to dig for. It wouldn't be given to me by network news anchors, politicians, nor the leading lights in establishment academia. When I discovered what was true, I could not resist acting on it and telling others. It really isn't any more complicated than that.
Daily Bell: Is the logical outcome of Austrian economics the disappearance of the state?
Rockwell: Mises didn't think so — neither did Hazlitt. Sudha Shenoy argues that of all the people who entertained the possibility of society without a state in that generation, Hayek comes closest to embodying the anarchistic temperament. In any case, the man who made the real difference in the Austrian School in this regard is Rothbard. It was he who pushed the theoretical apparatus "over the edge," so to speak. Hardly any modern Austrian today is not an anarchist. This is also thanks to Rothbardians such as Walter Block, Hans-Hermann Hoppe, and David Gordon, of course.
At one time Rothbard was denounced for his views, for having allegedly marginalized the Austrian School. Now, of course, his anarchism is probably the largest part of the legacy he left for the world. It is very appealing to young people, unlike the statism of regime economists.
Daily Bell: Is it reasonable to believe that the state will ever wither away or does reality instruct us that the best that can be done is to limit its power?
Rockwell: To me, that's like asking if we can imagine a society without robberies and murders. Maybe it won't ever happen, but we must have the ideal in mind or else we'll never get closer to it. Without the ideal, progress stops. To some extent, then, whether reality will finally ever conform is not the critical question. What counts is that what we imagine can and should exist. I like to imagine a society without legally sanctioned aggression against person and property.
Daily Bell: Are you worried that your organizations will come under significant attack as the free-market movement continues?
Rockwell: No, I don't worry about it. On the other hand, it is completely normal for radicals to be under attack from every quarter, so this would not be a surprise.
Daily Bell: Take us back in time. You founded Imprimis. Were you bitter when you left?
Rockwell: Not at all! I admired George Roche, and still do. But my work at Hillsdale was done, and I moved on.
Daily Bell: When did you decide to found the Mises Institute? Was it when you became allied with famous Austrian economist Murray Rothbard?
Rockwell: I had been Mises's editor at Arlington House Publishers in the late 1960s. After his death in 1973, it became increasingly clear to me that no idea in this world stands a chance for success without an infrastructure of support. Misesians did not have that in the universities nor think tanks. Mises himself dealt with the lack of support by leaving Austria and moving to a wonderful institute in Geneva. I wanted to found an institute in the United States that would be a sanctuary for free thought in the Misesian tradition.
First I approached his widow, Margit von Mises, who gave me her blessing and agreed to serve as our first chairman. Then I asked Murray, whom I had also known, to guide our scholarly affairs. He was thrilled as well. He was a natural ally not only because he was Mises's greatest student, but also because he was being shunned as too extreme, too radical, insufficiently willing to play the game — just as Mises had been. I take very seriously his example, and the trust he reposed in me by making me his executor. In many ways, he was the critical force behind our growth and success. His spirit still surrounds us today.
Daily Bell: What would Rothbard think of what has happened? Would he be surprised?
Rockwell: Well, mostly he would be thrilled. But remember that he was the greatest optimist for liberty. He was filled with hope and hated despair. Nor was this just a disposition. It was real hope rooted in the firm belief that if we did the right thing, we could make a difference. In this sense, I don't think he would be surprised that we have more student applications than we can accept, that more and more scholars seek us out, that our member programs sell out, that our audio files are being downloaded by the millions, that our books are selling faster than we can print them, and all the rest.
Daily Bell: There has been a resurgence of Randism. Are you surprised? Do you approve?
Rockwell: I met her and heard her give lectures and I was always impressed. Recall that when Atlas Shrugged came out, Mises and Rothbard both wrote glowing reviews. Her works of fiction are profoundly effective in promoting the capitalist message, and this is all to the good. But there are some critical errors. I don't think she fully understood the cooperative nature of the capitalist social order, for example. She had less regard for the consumer than the capitalist, and in this respect she was only half-right. But in general, if her books can disabuse people of canards against the free economy, that is great.
Daily Bell: Can you give our readers a very brief overview of Antiwar.com and how it is related to your enterprises, if at all?
Rockwell: I would say that AWC specializes in one aspect of Rothbardian thought. But while it is an ideological cousin of LRC and Mises.org, there is no direct relation. Rothbard's children are everywhere, of course. One reason has to do with his special way of communicating with people. He spoke to anyone at length about his or her own intellectual interests. If you loved news, he would talk news. If you loved the history of ideas, he would talk the history of ideas. If you were dedicated to the partitioning of Belgium, he would talk to you about this cause. He was a gigantic personality and intellect. No one penchant or interest or cause can sum up his life.
Daily Bell: How is fundraising going? Has it diminished since the financial crisis?
Rockwell: Not at all. If anything, people are even more dedicated to the idea of freedom and the propagation of the truth. Austrian ideas are getting far more attention than ever before — in the wake of a crisis that conforms so closely to the Austrian paradigm.
Daily Bell: Are you seeing a steady increase in people willing to fund free-market efforts?
Rockwell: Here too, we see great progress.
Daily Bell: What is the future of the Ron Paul freedom movement in your view?
Rockwell: This much is clear: the Paul movement has made a huge difference in bringing people to libertarian ideas. In some way, there is an element of tragedy in that it takes politics to wake people up. Ideally, people would discover the ideas of liberty through other means.
Ron Paul agrees with this observation, by the way. He sees himself as an educator first. He chose politics because, for him, it was an effective route for his larger and more important goal. And what an extraordinary job he has done, in his writing and speaking and personal example for almost four decades. He has brought vast numbers of people into the light. That was always his dream. I should add that his early support was very important in the Mises Institute's success. We are honored to have him as our distinguished counselor.
Daily Bell: Will your educational organizations become more involved in political efforts or not?
Rockwell: I would say no to that. Unless you are Ron Paul, politics is a dangerous business that tempts people to say and do crazy things. Success is fleeting, whereas we are in this for the long term.
Daily Bell: How is the free-market movement spreading overseas?
Rockwell: Wonderfully. One might compare Austrolibertarianism to Marxism in the extent of its international reach. This is very exciting. Human liberty is a universal desire, so of course there can be no libertarian movement that isn't truly international.
Daily Bell: Are you hopeful that growth will continue at the pace that it has over the past decade?
Rockwell: The future is always uncertain, but we have the tools and the energy and the ideas. Just in the last few years, we brought back to print virtually the whole of the Austrian and libertarian libraries. Our downloads are immense, especially among young people. If you must predict the future, look to the ideas held by young people and you will come close to finding it. In this sense, I'm certain that our movement will continue to grow long past my own life.
Daily Bell: Have you noticed increased resistance to your efforts coming from organized governmental entities?
Rockwell: One hears rumors, but nothing is known for sure. Government these days has many enemies, and all the usual bureaucratic problems in keeping up with them all.
Daily Bell: Where does the US government and its allied power structure go from here? We think they are bleeding credibility and influence.
Rockwell: Yes, and compare today's antigovernment feelings with the way things were just after 9/11/01, a massive state failure that the state used to promote itself. Today we see antistate feeling growing, picking up where it left off in the 1990s. But here is the problem. The Left hates some aspects of the state and loves others. The Right is the mirror image. The job of the libertarian is to get both sides to see that the other guys are half-right. Think of the Tea Parties, for example. The crowds roar disapproval of socialism even as they cheer for socialistic military invasions.
Daily Bell: Is it possible to return the United States to a more republican form of government? Can history be repealed?
Rockwell: We have a history as a radically decentralized nation, and this memory has not entirely evaporated. It could be that the path to liberty in the United States is nullification or even secession. Or the decentralization may be de facto as more and more people discover means of individually seceding from specific sectors of statism: using alternative currencies, homeschooling their children, reading alternative media, circumventing the pharma-industrial complex, starting an unofficial business, smoking whatever substances they want, or refusing to return to a military assignment. Rebellion can take many forms. We have to learn to welcome them all.
Daily Bell: Do you expect in your lifetime to see gold competing with the US dollar as currency?
Rockwell: Technology makes this possible as never before. Gold is not going away, but the dollar's life is limited.
Daily Bell: Do you expect the Fed to be audited?
Rockwell: This might happen, though as Ron Paul notes, transparency is only one step towards what must be the ultimate goal: shutting down the central bank.
Daily Bell: What do you think of Ellen Brown's theory that the state historically has created money, and that banks, including the Fed, ought to be nationalized and operated by "the people's" government. Some say that the oversight that Ron Paul wants Congress to have over the Fed is somehow an endorsement of the Brownian position.
Rockwell: I am not very familiar with Brown, but the Fed is the government's central bank, the audit bill gives no monetary power to other parts of the government, and the banks are already in cahoots with the regime. That's why we have a Fed and officially enabled fractional reserves.
Daily Bell: We are well aware that Ron Paul seeks a gold standard and in a perfect world the end of the Fed. Can you reaffirm this position for our readers?
Rockwell: Yes, though he does not seek a monopoly for anything, including gold. He wants money to be rooted in market experience. It is not complicated.
Daily Bell: We have noted what we think is a softening of an institutional position regarding the gold standard — and the possibility that free banking would be a considered option as well. Is this a correct observation of your organizations' stance?
Rockwell: I wouldn't say that we have an official position. There are many ways to move to free-market money and noninflationary banking. I would never want to close off any viable path. One problem with Mises's plan for a gold standard is that it relies on the idea that the people in charge will do the right thing. That is a charming, Old World idea, but I don't think it holds true in our times. We need to be open to the possibility that reform will never come from the top.
Daily Bell: Are you sympathetic to a private gold-and-silver standard or is a gold standard always preferable?
Rockwell: I am all for competing metals. But a true specie standard is always private, and it always leaves room for competing currencies.
Daily Bell: One of the hardest issues to resolve from a free-market point of view is ownership of intellectual property. Can you tell our readers where you come down on this difficult issue? In a free market, would individuals be able to claim and enforce intellectual property rights with any prospect of success?
Rockwell: Rothbard condemned patents but not copyrights. Mises and Machlup saw patents as government grants of monopoly, but neither condemned them outright. Hayek was against copyrights and patents, but didn't write about them much. It is digital media that have brought the issue into focus. The key thinker here is Stephan Kinsella. He and Jeffrey Tucker have done the heavy lifting and convinced most all of us that intellectual property is an artifice that has no place in a market economy.
There are incredible implications to this insight. The infinite reproducibility of ideas means that we stand a great chance of success. The fact that ideas are not scarce goods means that they need not be controlled. This is a wonderful thing. There is much work left to do in this area. The whole history of invention needs revision, and our theory of markets needs to take better account of the central place of emulation in social progress.
Daily Bell: Do you think the military-industrial complex in the United States will gradually erode as the free-market movement gathers even more strength, or is the power structure hell-bent on empire?
Rockwell: It has to erode. The empire is insanely overextended. At some point, we'll go the way of Britain and Rome. We can only hope that the United States takes this path in wisdom and not in desperation.
Daily Bell: Where do you go from here? Do you have other organizational changes in the works? Expansions?
Rockwell: There are expansions every day. We are looking at marvelous things, things that are bigger than anything we've yet done. But I don't want to spoil the surprise.
Daily Bell: What is your future personally? What intellectual endeavors are you focused on?
Rockwell: I want to keep working, especially on my website, and to keep pushing the boundaries of ideas and technology. I never plan on retiring, and neither should anyone else. There is too much work to do.
Daily Bell: Can you give our readers any advice as to what publications and information to seek out on your web sites — where do they start?
Rockwell: We always begin with our passions, whatever they are. No two people are alike. This is what search engines are for. But let me say that at some point, everyone should aspire to be a serious student of Mises and Rothbard. No education is complete without that.
Daily Bell: If readers wish to learn more about your organizations, where is the easiest starting point? Can anyone attend Mises seminars, etc.?
Rockwell: The websites are a great starting place, but of course we love to have new people come to our conferences. We are working to create more opportunities for that.
Daily Bell: Where would you recommend that a young person go for higher education in the United States?
Rockwell: Do you mean education or college? They aren't always the same. You can get a good education online today. For university degrees, I would suggest the least-cost investment. But remember that the opportunity costs of formal education are very high. After four to six years in college, a person can discover that he or she has no skills. That is the worst way to enter a workforce.
Daily Bell: Thank you for your time and insights.
Rockwell: You're welcome.